Old Weather Forum

Library => The voyages, the work, the people, the places => Topic started by: Jeff on 02 November 2011, 02:29:18

Title: What Armistice?
Post by: Jeff on 02 November 2011, 02:29:18
Nov. 11, 1918 was just another Monday aboard Orvieto. Not a word about the Armistice. Ho hum.

http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-53909/ADM%2053-53909-008_1.jpg

Did anyone have a log entry marking the Armistice?
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Kathy on 02 November 2011, 05:27:20
There have been several, but I don't remember specifics  :P

a search of the Forum would probably turn them up -  ;D

Kathy
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 02 November 2011, 13:26:57
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-37556/C2-ADM53-37556-079_1.jpg

This is the Changuinola's log for 11 November 1918.  If you look at "Worse Things Happen At Sea" Reply No 1070, Bunts found a lot more about the celebrations in Liverpool where the Changuinola was docked.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Bunting Tosser on 02 November 2011, 14:08:51
I'm pretty sure that I (or someone) saw an entry to the effect that the Armistice was announced and "Splice the mainbrace" ordered. It might have been a dream ... because I can't find it now.
Cyzaki spliced the main brace at http://forum.oldweather.org/index.php?topic=600.msg5130#msg5130 but I'm not sure of the context.

Oh, I am cross. Must try later.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 02 November 2011, 14:44:45
If I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to celebrate the signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice Day?

Edit:  Here's the page which actually says "Spliced the mainbrace":
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-49096/ADM%2053-49096-017_1.jpg

and celebrations continued the following day:
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-49096/ADM%2053-49096-018_0.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: heffkit on 02 November 2011, 15:03:32
If I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to celebrate the signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice Day?

Edit:  Here's the page which actually says "Spliced the mainbrace":
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-49096/ADM%2053-49096-017_1.jpg
I think this merits a copy of the actual entry: (http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/heffkit/splicedthemainbrace.png)

...it's the 'in accordance with Admiralty orders' that cracks me up!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Bunting Tosser on 02 November 2011, 18:57:47
If I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to celebrate the signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice Day?

Yes, I suppose the title would become more widely used in retrospect.

I'm off to the addiction centre because:
1. I really really thought that I'd seen "Armistice" and "main brace" in one of my logs, and
2. I've just checked all my ships for 11th December 1918 (and a day or two later) to check, and
3. I remember mentioning that HMS Naneric's only acknowledgment of 11th November was a note in the log that all navigation lights were burning on the crossing from Newport News.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: heffkit on 02 November 2011, 20:18:25
If I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to celebrate the signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice Day?

Yes, I suppose the title would become more widely used in retrospect.

I'm off to the addiction centre because:
1. I really really thought that I'd seen "Armistice" and "main brace" in one of my logs, and
2. I've just checked all my ships for 11th December 1918 (and a day or two later) to check, and
3. I remember mentioning that HMS Naneric's only acknowledgment of 11th November was a note in the log that all navigation lights were burning on the crossing from Newport News.

You weren't thinking of Armistice Day on the Changuinola, by any chance, Bunts?
(admittedly no mention of main brace...)
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-37556/C2-ADM53-37556-079_1.jpg

Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Bunting Tosser on 02 November 2011, 20:52:46

You weren't thinking of Armistice Day on the Changuinola, by any chance, Bunts?
(admittedly no mention of main brace...)
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-37556/C2-ADM53-37556-079_1.jpg

Quite honestly, kit, I'm not able to think right now.
My eyes are rolling at the amount of collating you've just done, obviously with all dispatch.
Who's in charge of the gold stars? We've got a candidate.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: jennfurr on 02 November 2011, 23:06:56
(http://www.nonstopgifs.com/animated-gifs/3d/3d-animated-gif-007.gif) (http://www.nonstopgifs.com)
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: heffkit on 03 November 2011, 02:47:08
 :-[ ::)  ;D ;D
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Randi on 03 November 2011, 02:54:54
I love the Royal Navy. 11am on the 11th of November, 1918, marked in the log of HM Yacht "Warrior" by the memorable and deeply touching entry "Hands engaged in painting deck houses."
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: jennfurr on 03 November 2011, 04:47:26
I love the Royal Navy. 11am on the 11th of November, 1918, marked in the log of HM Yacht "Warrior" by the memorable and deeply touching entry "Hands engaged in painting deck houses."
:D ;D
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: DJ_59 on 03 November 2011, 15:10:27

Reading those words still gives me goosebumps.   :-\
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Gixernutter on 08 November 2011, 17:52:23
HMS Juno, somewhere off Aden/Djibouti (I think, as she left there on 10th). 11am on 11 November 1918 came and went with nothing but a series of weather reports and course changes & bearings in the log. link : http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-008_1.jpg

Jungle Telegraph was obviously not working, although as Captain & Officers visited Governor of Djibouti on 10th, he could have given them some advance info as by then the Armistice was expected.

However, on 14th, wild parties and fireworks were reported here: http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-010_0.jpg

Very surprised to only see 6 ratings placed under sentry's charge on their return from liberty.... Not trying hard enough in my opinion!
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Bunting Tosser on 08 November 2011, 21:13:04
However, on 14th, wild parties and fireworks were reported here: http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-010_0.jpg

Very surprised to only see 6 ratings placed under sentry's charge on their return from liberty.... Not trying hard enough in my opinion!

Do you suppose the captain demonstrated his version of "the Nelson Touch"? In this case, turning a blind eye? Except for those matelots who couldn't get back under their own steam.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Tegwen on 09 November 2011, 04:26:31
HMS Juno, somewhere off Aden/Djibouti (I think, as she left there on 10th). 11am on 11 November 1918 came and went with nothing but a series of weather reports and course changes & bearings in the log. link : http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-008_1.jpg

Jungle Telegraph was obviously not working, although as Captain & Officers visited Governor of Djibouti on 10th, he could have given them some advance info as by then the Armistice was expected.

However, on 14th, wild parties and fireworks were reported here: http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-010_0.jpg

Very surprised to only see 6 ratings placed under sentry's charge on their return from liberty.... Not trying hard enough in my opinion!

Thanks for this Gixernutter. Good to see that Odin was involved. I dont remember any of this from her logs, but perhaps it is just senility on my part.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Carrie32 on 20 November 2011, 11:27:22
On HMS Cornwall we did dress the ship on Armistice Day 1918 but no mention of why. But on the 28th June 1919 when "Peace was signed with Germany" (Treaty of Versailles) we had "All hands Spliced the Mainbrace".
 http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-38701/ADM%2053-38701-087_0.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Jeff on 10 January 2012, 22:55:03
HMS Caesar marked the signing of the peace treaty in June 1919:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-36596/0017_0.jpg

They dressed ship the next day.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Steeleye on 17 January 2012, 04:54:33
On HMS Glory, guard ship at Murmansk, not a mention of anything out of the ordinary on the 11th ... or on the 12th, 13th or 14th.  I confess that I'm not sure how messages would have been sent to northern Russia in 1918 - can anyone enlighten me?  I know that there was a British Consulate in Murmansk at the time.

I was also 'on board' the HMS Lancaster in November 1918 - she was in Esquimault, British Columbia at the time - not a mention of the war ending in her logs either.
 ???

(Edited later)  On 17 November, the log of HMS Glory notes:
'Hands marched past Admiral Green.'
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-43039/ADM%2053-43039-222_1.jpg (https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-43039/ADM%2053-43039-222_1.jpg)

It's possible that this was done to celebrate the armistice, as they have not done a march past at any other time on the Glory that I've seen.  Also at about this time, they stopped 'darkening ship' in the evening.  A few days later, a Lieutenant Wood (who had gone missing ashore some time previously) and 41 ratings were discharged for passage to England.  A range of inconclusive points indicating that they were winding back from a war footing, although they were still part of the 'Russian Intervention'.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Janet Jaguar on 17 January 2012, 11:24:45
Lots of ships logged notice of this, more seem to have ignored it in the logs.  I don't know why.

But all these ships had "wireless telegraphy" - long distance radio that transmitted morse code, not voice.  I do not know how long that distance is, but do not at all doubt that every radio operator hearing about an armistice would have eagerly relayed it onward.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Helen J on 17 January 2012, 14:12:00
According to my present Old Weather reading, Julian Thompson's Imperial War Museum Book of the War at Sea 1914-18 (which I highly recommend) wireless communication had a number of limitations.  For example, direct communication between London and British ships in South American waters wasn't possible.  If the Admiralty wanted to communicate with a ship off the East coast of South America they had to send a cable to Montevideo in Uruguay, from where it was then transmitted by wireless to the Falklands, and then re-transmitted to ships at sea; and replies had to come by the same route.
On the west coast of South America it wasn't possible to communicate with the Falklands because of atmospheric conditions caused by the Andes; Chile was a neutral country and so coded signals couldn't be sent to wireless stations there.  The Admiralty sent signals to British consuls, and ships had to be diverted to go and collect them.
I expect it was all rather easier nearer to home!
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Randi on 17 January 2012, 14:19:27
Thanks for the explanation 8)
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on 19 January 2012, 16:43:21
It also needs to be pointed out that depending on atmospheric conditions a message to a shipon the east coast of South America could take anywhere from several hours to two days to reach them and visa versa. I believe the average ships radio back then had a range of about 150 miles. As for submarines they had to surface and set up their wireless aerials as they called them in order to send and recieve messages. I think it was in the fall of 1916where the RN was able to equip a submarine with a radio that could transmit from the german coast to England. it should also be pointed out that many merchant ships and smaller warships did not have radio sets at the start of WW I.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Caro on 15 February 2012, 17:47:52
HMS Hyacinth November 11, 1918  Simonstown

1.30 Received official news of signature of armistice between Germany and allies
1.33 Fired 3 guns
1.40 Dressed ship

Well done Hyacinth.  ;D

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-44644/ADM%2053-44644-278_1.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: h.kohler on 15 March 2012, 06:15:33
November 11th 1920 H.M.S. Veronica observed two minutes of silence.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-89883/0127_0.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: HebesDad on 15 March 2012, 07:50:37
Somewhat related - one TB36 in August 1914 both mobilisation and declaration of war were logged. No all I have to do is hang in there until 1918 and see if they log the armistice
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: jil on 16 March 2012, 12:19:40
November 11th 1921 HMS Moorhen observed 2 minutes silence

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-80943/008_1.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Janet Jaguar on 17 March 2012, 00:57:57
Somewhat related - one TB36 in August 1914 both mobilisation and declaration of war were logged. No all I have to do is hang in there until 1918 and see if they log the armistice

On the sloop Torch (our logs turned out to be for two different ships named 'Torch'), this is what happened:
On 7th August 1914 (http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM%2053-63330/ADM%2053-63330-059_0.jpg), HMS Torch noted in their logs for the first time that they are "Preparing for war" and after dark, "Darkened ship" and later "Manned and armed ship".  They continued on their stated voyage to Suva, Fiji.

On 9th August 1914 (http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM%2053-63330/ADM%2053-63330-060_0.jpg), they changed course in the early morning hours and headed for New Zealand.

On 14th August 1914 (http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM%2053-63330/ADM%2053-63330-062_1.jpg), (yes, it took that long - this lovely little tall ship is not fast :) ) Torch arrived in Aukland harbour.  She immediately discharged ammunition.  Also discharged to different ships were 3 of her senior officers and a "large proportion of ship's company".  Immediately embarked were 2 officers, replacing some of the loss.  The whole navy is obviously preparing itself for war.

19th Century sailing ships weren't fit for that war, so she was decommissioned and turned over to New Zealand.  That simple statement interrupted and changed her mission in the islands.  NZ navy ended up using her as a training ship.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Tegwen on 17 March 2012, 06:01:06
Odin got a new coat of paint at the start of the war.

http://forum.oldweather.org/index.php?topic=1397.msg14686#msg14686
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Helen J on 24 March 2012, 15:33:58
HMS Torch, 11th November 1921, marked the armistice:

8am Dressed ship.
10.55 Undress ship.  Ensign at Half Mast 2 minutes silence.  Rehoist Colours Dress ship.
5pm Undress ship.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-87831/009_1.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: jil on 29 March 2012, 15:00:02
HMS Caradoc 11th Nov 1918 at 11:07 - Received signal to suspend hostilities against Germany
They are in the North Sea not far from Rosyth.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37032/008_1.jpg

They are still zig-zagging in the afternoon despite the signal.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 29 March 2012, 15:10:56
To be fair, at that early stage they've got no guarantee that the same instruction has been received by all those German U-boats!
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: studentforever on 30 March 2012, 16:40:53
First anniversary is marked on Temeraire

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-62529/0032_0.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Helen J on 06 April 2012, 15:38:52
HMS Cardiff, making sure that 11th November 1918 won't go unnoticed.

At 11am in the log 'Ceased hostilities against Germany, on their signing the Armistice'.  And it's written in red and block capitals. 

At 7pm 'Spliced the Main Brace'.

They're in Rosyth, which probably helped to make this the first ship I've been on where it's been marked like this.  Mind you, that afternoon they're still making and mending clothes!

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37063/ADM53-37063-0008_1.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 09 April 2012, 11:37:05
I've only previously seen any real notice taken of the Armistice on ships that were in port at the time.  The Mantua set off from Devonport with a convoy on 9 November en route for Sierra Leone so was at sea on the 11th, and there is just a mention in the logs at 4.14pm "Cessation of hostilities".  This is presumably how long it took for the message to get to them.  However, on 14 November we have: "The Captain cautioned Sub-Lieut D R Cameron RNR for exceeding his monthly wine bill."  Like he would have cared!

Incidentally the Mantua was still zigzagging on 19 November, presumably just in case there were any rogue U-boats around.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: jil on 14 April 2012, 11:41:31
HMS Ceres 29th June 1919 Malta
Dressed ship in honour of 'Peace' (not sure why the quotes round Peace)
And my first ever Spliced the mainbrace -  ;D

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37502/0099_1.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: jil on 19 April 2012, 04:16:35
HMS Ceres 11th November 1919 - Fired 1 gun salute. sounded still in Honour of 1st Anniversary of Signing of Armistice

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37502/0173_0.jpg
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Randi on 15 June 2012, 09:24:09
HMS Mutine - 11 Nov 1921

11:00 Observed two minutes silence.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 20 July 2012, 15:32:36
I know a lot of us have been struck by the apparently underwhelming response to the Armistice which we have seen in the logs.  I have been reading a novel recently set during the First World War, and the chief protagonists in this book were by no means dancing in the street on 11 November 1918 either.  This has brought home to me that we are looking at all this with the benefit of hindsight.  We know it was the end of the war, but at the time it was only an armistice - a cease-fire, not a surrender.  While many people did celebrate the event as the end of the war, it seems that there were real fears at the time that it could all collapse and the fighting could restart - it took time before people could see that the machinery of war was being dismantled and the troops were really coming home.

For sure this is a work of fiction and not a historical source, but it rang true to me.  The book is "My Dear, I Wanted To Tell You" by Louisa Young - all the action is on the Western Front as usual.  I found it a very good read.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: studentforever on 20 July 2012, 16:48:40
Some of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.  With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Tegwen on 20 July 2012, 17:54:19
Some of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.  With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.

I am just getting to the Armistice part in Stevenson's 1914 - 1918 History of the Great War. He makes it clear that the allied governments (if not the soldiers themselves) were perfectly prepared to continue if the Central Powers did not accept the plans, in full without additional conditions. He also says that Ludendorf had a plan for an early armistice and keep the German army intact for a further attack later, but was overruled & ousted by the new government that was a condition of the armistice.

Apparently Lloyd George wanted to press on to ensure that the German people could not decide that they had not been beaten so that they would not be tempted to restart in twenty years time. How prophetic was that?
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: studentforever on 21 July 2012, 03:56:54
I think the gap matters. A few days and everyone in place; yes, the officers would probably have cajoled the men into starting fighting again. After a few weeks and the men starting to go home and then I think the trouble would have started.  The story sold to us in current affairs (now I believe it is in history!) was that the punitive reparations demanded of the Germans was one of the causes of WW2.  The difference between science and history - you can't run controlled experiments in history!
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 21 July 2012, 08:20:45
Some of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.  With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.

I am just getting to the Armistice part in Stevenson's 1914 - 1918 History of the Graet War. He makes it clear that the allied governments (if not the soldiers themselves) were perfectly prepared to continue if the Central Powers did not accept the plans, in full without additional conditions. He also says that Ludendorf had a plan for an early armistice and keep the German army intact for a further attack later, but was overruled & ousted by the new government that was a condition of the armistice.

Apparently Lloyd George wanted to press on to ensure that the German people could not decide that they had not been beaten so that they would not be tempted to restart in twenty years time. How prophetic was that?

Sorry, Keith, I don't think that was Lloyd George's view at all.  He is famous for the quote "no victor, no vanquished" and was I believe keen for Germany to resume a full part in European politics.  (I just happened to read this yesterday in Peter Clarke's "Hope and Glory - Britain 1900-2000".)  I understand it was the French who were hell-bent on exacting vengeance on Germany, while Britain tried to moderate her demands.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Tegwen on 21 July 2012, 17:49:24
Some of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.  With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.

I am just getting to the Armistice part in Stevenson's 1914 - 1918 History of the Graet War. He makes it clear that the allied governments (if not the soldiers themselves) were perfectly prepared to continue if the Central Powers did not accept the plans, in full without additional conditions. He also says that Ludendorf had a plan for an early armistice and keep the German army intact for a further attack later, but was overruled & ousted by the new government that was a condition of the armistice.

Apparently Lloyd George wanted to press on to ensure that the German people could not decide that they had not been beaten so that they would not be tempted to restart in twenty years time. How prophetic was that?

Sorry, Keith, I don't think that was Lloyd George's view at all.  He is famous for the quote "no victor, no vanquished" and was I believe keen for Germany to resume a full part in European politics.  (I just happened to read this yesterday in Peter Clarke's "Hope and Glory - Britain 1900-2000".)  I understand it was the French who were hell-bent on exacting vengeance on Germany, while Britain tried to moderate her demands.

Hi Sue. I am certainly no expert but I clearly read that in Stevenson only a couple of days ago. Will try to find the text and "transcribe" it, or at least provide a proper reference.  Of course the timing is important and I cant remember when in the last few months of the war he is supposed to have said it. For example he may have said it fairly early on then realised that it was more important to moderate the French attempts to push on to take bridgeheads on the East of the Rhine than to ensure total defeat.  The changes in positions, especially by Wilson, over those last few weeks were dramatic.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 22 July 2012, 14:11:08
Ah well, that's historians for you - can't agree on anything!  The differences in interpretation are part of what makes history so fascinating to me.

If Lloyd George made the remark Stevenson referred to in the closing months of the war, then he may well have altered his views by the time he was at the negotiating table after the war.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Janet Jaguar on 22 July 2012, 17:32:48
Looking up reference sites for Phase 3, I found this in the USN Library Online Reading Room:

Radio communications between Royal Navy Admiral Sir David Beatty and Vice Admiral Franz Ritter von Hipper, Commander-in-Chief German High Seas Fleet, and associated Armistice-related messages, 11-24 November 1918. (http://www.history.navy.mil/library/manuscript/wwi_naval_communication.htm)

(http://www.history.navy.mil/pics/wwinaval_commun01lge.jpg)

Other USN documents that are online at this time for 1910 through 1919 are at:
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/readingroom.htm#1910

Note: all government generated documents and images are copyright-free by law.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: tastiger on 22 July 2012, 23:58:59
http://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-41486/ADM%2053-41486-025_0.jpg

HMS Fame, November 13th, 1918 (sorry if this was already posted).
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: jil on 23 July 2012, 05:02:35
Janet, thanks for posting that signal, it explains the zig-zagging!

HMS Caradoc 11th Nov 1918 at 11:07 - Received signal to suspend hostilities against Germany
They are in the North Sea not far from Rosyth.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37032/008_1.jpg

They are still zig-zagging in the afternoon despite the signal.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Tegwen on 28 July 2012, 18:11:22
Ah well, that's historians for you - can't agree on anything!  The differences in interpretation are part of what makes history so fascinating to me.

If Lloyd George made the remark Stevenson referred to in the closing months of the war, then he may well have altered his views by the time he was at the negotiating table after the war.

Found it. On page 477 Stevenson is talking about the allies discussions on how far to go before calling the armistice. This is after the Germans first contact with Wilson at the start of October but before the armistice is enacted.

Stevenson is talking about the French proposals push forward until they could cross the Rhine and form a bridgehead on the East side.

Stevenson says: " In Britain the mood was more cautious. Ironically Lloyd George questioned whether an armistice now might leave the Germans feeling they had not been beaten and encourage them to start again in twenty years time. but he did not insist." He cites another book, "Had we Known" by French.

There does seem to have been a lot of changing of positions in those frantic months from the end of the last German offensive to the 11th of Novermber.


Thus this seems to have been a point raised in discussion rather than an overall British Government position.
Title: Re: What Armistice?
Post by: Thursday Next on 29 July 2012, 13:49:45
Thanks for the clarification, Keith.