Old Weather Forum
Library => The voyages, the work, the people, the places => Topic started by: Jeff on 02 November 2011, 02:29:18
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Nov. 11, 1918 was just another Monday aboard Orvieto. Not a word about the Armistice. Ho hum.
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-53909/ADM%2053-53909-008_1.jpg
Did anyone have a log entry marking the Armistice?
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There have been several, but I don't remember specifics :P
a search of the Forum would probably turn them up - ;D
Kathy
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http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-37556/C2-ADM53-37556-079_1.jpg
This
is the Changuinola's log for 11 November 1918. If you look at
"Worse Things Happen At Sea" Reply No 1070, Bunts found a lot more about
the celebrations in Liverpool where the Changuinola was docked.
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I'm pretty sure that I (or someone) saw an entry to the effect that
the Armistice was announced and "Splice the mainbrace" ordered. It might
have been a dream ... because I can't find it now.
Cyzaki spliced
the main brace at
http://forum.oldweather.org/index.php?topic=600.msg5130#msg5130 but I'm
not sure of the context.
Oh, I am cross. Must try later.
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If I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to
celebrate the signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice
Day?
Edit: Here's the page which actually says "Spliced the mainbrace":
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-49096/ADM%2053-49096-017_1.jpg
and celebrations continued the following day:
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-49096/ADM%2053-49096-018_0.jpg
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If
I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to celebrate the
signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice Day?
Edit: Here's the page which actually says "Spliced the mainbrace":
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-49096/ADM%2053-49096-017_1.jpg
I think this merits a copy of the actual entry: (http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/heffkit/splicedthemainbrace.png)
...it's the 'in accordance with Admiralty orders' that cracks me up!! ;D ;D
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If
I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to celebrate the
signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice Day?
Yes, I suppose the title would become more widely used in retrospect.
I'm off to the addiction centre because:
1. I really really thought that I'd seen "Armistice" and "main brace" in one of my logs, and
2. I've just checked all my ships for 11th December 1918 (and a day or two later) to check, and
3.
I remember mentioning that HMS Naneric's only acknowledgment of 11th
November was a note in the log that all navigation lights were burning
on the crossing from Newport News.
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If
I remember rightly, the entry you are thinking of was to celebrate the
signing of the actual Peace Treaty, rather than Armistice Day?
Yes, I suppose the title would become more widely used in retrospect.
I'm off to the addiction centre because:
1. I really really thought that I'd seen "Armistice" and "main brace" in one of my logs, and
2. I've just checked all my ships for 11th December 1918 (and a day or two later) to check, and
3.
I remember mentioning that HMS Naneric's only acknowledgment of 11th
November was a note in the log that all navigation lights were burning
on the crossing from Newport News.
You weren't thinking of Armistice Day on the Changuinola, by any chance, Bunts?
(admittedly no mention of main brace...)
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-37556/C2-ADM53-37556-079_1.jpg
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You weren't thinking of Armistice Day on the Changuinola, by any chance, Bunts?
(admittedly no mention of main brace...)
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-37556/C2-ADM53-37556-079_1.jpg
Quite honestly, kit, I'm not able to think right now.
My eyes are rolling at the amount of collating you've just done, obviously with all dispatch.
Who's in charge of the gold stars? We've got a candidate.
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(http://www.nonstopgifs.com/animated-gifs/3d/3d-animated-gif-007.gif) (http://www.nonstopgifs.com)
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:-[ ::) ;D ;D
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I
love the Royal Navy. 11am on the 11th of November, 1918, marked in the
log of HM Yacht "Warrior" by the memorable and deeply touching entry
"Hands engaged in painting deck houses."
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I
love the Royal Navy. 11am on the 11th of November, 1918, marked in the
log of HM Yacht "Warrior" by the memorable and deeply touching entry
"Hands engaged in painting deck houses."
:D ;D
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Reading those words still gives me goosebumps. :-\
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HMS Juno, somewhere off Aden/Djibouti (I think, as she left there on
10th). 11am on 11 November 1918 came and went with nothing but a series
of weather reports and course changes & bearings in the log. link :
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-008_1.jpg
Jungle
Telegraph was obviously not working, although as Captain & Officers
visited Governor of Djibouti on 10th, he could have given them some
advance info as by then the Armistice was expected.
However, on
14th, wild parties and fireworks were reported here:
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-010_0.jpg
Very
surprised to only see 6 ratings placed under sentry's charge on their
return from liberty.... Not trying hard enough in my opinion!
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However,
on 14th, wild parties and fireworks were reported here:
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-010_0.jpg
Very
surprised to only see 6 ratings placed under sentry's charge on their
return from liberty.... Not trying hard enough in my opinion!
Do
you suppose the captain demonstrated his version of "the Nelson Touch"?
In this case, turning a blind eye? Except for those matelots who
couldn't get back under their own steam.
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HMS
Juno, somewhere off Aden/Djibouti (I think, as she left there on 10th).
11am on 11 November 1918 came and went with nothing but a series of
weather reports and course changes & bearings in the log. link :
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-008_1.jpg
Jungle
Telegraph was obviously not working, although as Captain & Officers
visited Governor of Djibouti on 10th, he could have given them some
advance info as by then the Armistice was expected.
However, on
14th, wild parties and fireworks were reported here:
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM_53-45496/ADM%2053-45496-010_0.jpg
Very
surprised to only see 6 ratings placed under sentry's charge on their
return from liberty.... Not trying hard enough in my opinion!
Thanks
for this Gixernutter. Good to see that Odin was involved. I dont
remember any of this from her logs, but perhaps it is just senility on
my part.
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On HMS Cornwall we did dress the ship on Armistice Day 1918 but no
mention of why. But on the 28th June 1919 when "Peace was signed with
Germany" (Treaty of Versailles) we had "All hands Spliced the
Mainbrace".
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM53-38701/ADM%2053-38701-087_0.jpg
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HMS Caesar marked the signing of the peace treaty in June 1919:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-36596/0017_0.jpg
They dressed ship the next day.
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On HMS Glory, guard ship at Murmansk, not a mention of anything out
of the ordinary on the 11th ... or on the 12th, 13th or 14th. I
confess that I'm not sure how messages would have been sent to northern
Russia in 1918 - can anyone enlighten me? I know that there was a
British Consulate in Murmansk at the time.
I was also 'on board'
the HMS Lancaster in November 1918 - she was in Esquimault, British
Columbia at the time - not a mention of the war ending in her logs
either.
???
(Edited later) On 17 November, the log of HMS Glory notes:
'Hands marched past Admiral Green.'
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-43039/ADM%2053-43039-222_1.jpg
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-43039/ADM%2053-43039-222_1.jpg)
It's
possible that this was done to celebrate the armistice, as they have
not done a march past at any other time on the Glory that I've
seen. Also at about this time, they stopped 'darkening ship' in
the evening. A few days later, a Lieutenant Wood (who had gone
missing ashore some time previously) and 41 ratings were discharged for
passage to England. A range of inconclusive points indicating that
they were winding back from a war footing, although they were still
part of the 'Russian Intervention'.
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Lots of ships logged notice of this, more seem to have ignored it in the logs. I don't know why.
But
all these ships had "wireless telegraphy" - long distance radio that
transmitted morse code, not voice. I do not know how long that
distance is, but do not at all doubt that every radio operator hearing
about an armistice would have eagerly relayed it onward.
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According to my present Old Weather reading, Julian Thompson's
Imperial War Museum Book of the War at Sea 1914-18 (which I highly
recommend) wireless communication had a number of limitations. For
example, direct communication between London and British ships in South
American waters wasn't possible. If the Admiralty wanted to
communicate with a ship off the East coast of South America they had to
send a cable to Montevideo in Uruguay, from where it was then
transmitted by wireless to the Falklands, and then re-transmitted to
ships at sea; and replies had to come by the same route.
On the west
coast of South America it wasn't possible to communicate with the
Falklands because of atmospheric conditions caused by the Andes; Chile
was a neutral country and so coded signals couldn't be sent to wireless
stations there. The Admiralty sent signals to British consuls, and
ships had to be diverted to go and collect them.
I expect it was all rather easier nearer to home!
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Thanks for the explanation 8)
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It also needs to be pointed out that depending on atmospheric
conditions a message to a shipon the east coast of South America could
take anywhere from several hours to two days to reach them and visa
versa. I believe the average ships radio back then had a range of about
150 miles. As for submarines they had to surface and set up their
wireless aerials as they called them in order to send and recieve
messages. I think it was in the fall of 1916where the RN was able to
equip a submarine with a radio that could transmit from the german coast
to England. it should also be pointed out that many merchant ships and
smaller warships did not have radio sets at the start of WW I.
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HMS Hyacinth November 11, 1918 Simonstown
1.30 Received official news of signature of armistice between Germany and allies
1.33 Fired 3 guns
1.40 Dressed ship
Well done Hyacinth. ;D
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-44644/ADM%2053-44644-278_1.jpg
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November 11th 1920 H.M.S. Veronica observed two minutes of silence.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-89883/0127_0.jpg
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Somewhat related - one TB36 in August 1914 both mobilisation and
declaration of war were logged. No all I have to do is hang in there
until 1918 and see if they log the armistice
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November 11th 1921 HMS Moorhen observed 2 minutes silence
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-80943/008_1.jpg
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Somewhat
related - one TB36 in August 1914 both mobilisation and declaration of
war were logged. No all I have to do is hang in there until 1918 and see
if they log the armistice
On the sloop Torch (our logs turned out to be for two different ships named 'Torch'), this is what happened:
On 7th August 1914
(http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM%2053-63330/ADM%2053-63330-059_0.jpg),
HMS Torch noted in their logs for the first time that they are
"Preparing for war" and after dark, "Darkened ship" and later "Manned
and armed ship". They continued on their stated voyage to Suva,
Fiji.
On 9th August 1914
(http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM%2053-63330/ADM%2053-63330-060_0.jpg),
they changed course in the early morning hours and headed for New
Zealand.
On 14th August 1914
(http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ADM%2053-63330/ADM%2053-63330-062_1.jpg),
(yes, it took that long - this lovely little tall ship is not fast :) )
Torch arrived in Aukland harbour. She immediately discharged
ammunition. Also discharged to different ships were 3 of her
senior officers and a "large proportion of ship's company".
Immediately embarked were 2 officers, replacing some of the loss.
The whole navy is obviously preparing itself for war.
19th
Century sailing ships weren't fit for that war, so she was
decommissioned and turned over to New Zealand. That simple
statement interrupted and changed her mission in the islands. NZ
navy ended up using her as a training ship.
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Odin got a new coat of paint at the start of the war.
http://forum.oldweather.org/index.php?topic=1397.msg14686#msg14686
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HMS Torch, 11th November 1921, marked the armistice:
8am Dressed ship.
10.55 Undress ship. Ensign at Half Mast 2 minutes silence. Rehoist Colours Dress ship.
5pm Undress ship.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-87831/009_1.jpg
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HMS Caradoc 11th Nov 1918 at 11:07 - Received signal to suspend hostilities against Germany
They are in the North Sea not far from Rosyth.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37032/008_1.jpg
They are still zig-zagging in the afternoon despite the signal.
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To be fair, at that early stage they've got no guarantee that the same instruction has been received by all those German U-boats!
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First anniversary is marked on Temeraire
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-62529/0032_0.jpg
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HMS Cardiff, making sure that 11th November 1918 won't go unnoticed.
At
11am in the log 'Ceased hostilities against Germany, on their signing
the Armistice'. And it's written in red and block capitals.
At 7pm 'Spliced the Main Brace'.
They're
in Rosyth, which probably helped to make this the first ship I've been
on where it's been marked like this. Mind you, that afternoon
they're still making and mending clothes!
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37063/ADM53-37063-0008_1.jpg
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I've only previously seen any real notice taken of the Armistice on
ships that were in port at the time. The Mantua set off from
Devonport with a convoy on 9 November en route for Sierra Leone so was
at sea on the 11th, and there is just a mention in the logs at 4.14pm
"Cessation of hostilities". This is presumably how long it took
for the message to get to them. However, on 14 November we have:
"The Captain cautioned Sub-Lieut D R Cameron RNR for exceeding his
monthly wine bill." Like he would have cared!
Incidentally the Mantua was still zigzagging on 19 November, presumably just in case there were any rogue U-boats around.
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HMS Ceres 29th June 1919 Malta
Dressed ship in honour of 'Peace' (not sure why the quotes round Peace)
And my first ever Spliced the mainbrace - ;D
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37502/0099_1.jpg
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HMS Ceres 11th November 1919 - Fired 1 gun salute. sounded still in Honour of 1st Anniversary of Signing of Armistice
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37502/0173_0.jpg
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HMS Mutine - 11 Nov 1921
11:00 Observed two minutes silence.
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I know a lot of us have been struck by the apparently underwhelming
response to the Armistice which we have seen in the logs. I have
been reading a novel recently set during the First World War, and the
chief protagonists in this book were by no means dancing in the street
on 11 November 1918 either. This has brought home to me that we
are looking at all this with the benefit of hindsight. We know
it was the end of the war, but at the time it was only an armistice - a
cease-fire, not a surrender. While many people did celebrate the
event as the end of the war, it seems that there were real fears at the
time that it could all collapse and the fighting could restart - it took
time before people could see that the machinery of war was being
dismantled and the troops were really coming home.
For sure this
is a work of fiction and not a historical source, but it rang true to
me. The book is "My Dear, I Wanted To Tell You" by Louisa Young -
all the action is on the Western Front as usual. I found it a very
good read.
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Some of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War
reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.
With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have
had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice
broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after
all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.
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Some
of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War
reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.
With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have
had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice
broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after
all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.
I
am just getting to the Armistice part in Stevenson's 1914 - 1918
History of the Great War. He makes it clear that the allied governments
(if not the soldiers themselves) were perfectly prepared to continue if
the Central Powers did not accept the plans, in full without additional
conditions. He also says that Ludendorf had a plan for an early
armistice and keep the German army intact for a further attack later,
but was overruled & ousted by the new government that was a
condition of the armistice.
Apparently Lloyd George wanted to
press on to ensure that the German people could not decide that they had
not been beaten so that they would not be tempted to restart in twenty
years time. How prophetic was that?
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I think the gap matters. A few days and everyone in place; yes, the
officers would probably have cajoled the men into starting fighting
again. After a few weeks and the men starting to go home and then I
think the trouble would have started. The story sold to us in
current affairs (now I believe it is in history!) was that the punitive
reparations demanded of the Germans was one of the causes of WW2.
The difference between science and history - you can't run controlled
experiments in history!
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Some
of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War
reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.
With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have
had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice
broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after
all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.
I
am just getting to the Armistice part in Stevenson's 1914 - 1918
History of the Graet War. He makes it clear that the allied governments
(if not the soldiers themselves) were perfectly prepared to continue if
the Central Powers did not accept the plans, in full without additional
conditions. He also says that Ludendorf had a plan for an early
armistice and keep the German army intact for a further attack later,
but was overruled & ousted by the new government that was a
condition of the armistice.
Apparently Lloyd George wanted to
press on to ensure that the German people could not decide that they had
not been beaten so that they would not be tempted to restart in twenty
years time. How prophetic was that?
Sorry,
Keith, I don't think that was Lloyd George's view at all. He is
famous for the quote "no victor, no vanquished" and was I believe keen
for Germany to resume a full part in European politics. (I just
happened to read this yesterday in Peter Clarke's "Hope and Glory -
Britain 1900-2000".) I understand it was the French who were
hell-bent on exacting vengeance on Germany, while Britain tried to
moderate her demands.
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Some
of the war memorials are inscribed as the 1914-1919 World War
reflecting the fact that the final treaty was only signed in 1919.
With the benefit of hindsight I'm not sure that either side would have
had the appetite to start up trench warfare again had the armistice
broken down. I get the impression that everyone was just worn out after
all the trials and tribulations of the previous 4 and a bit years.
I
am just getting to the Armistice part in Stevenson's 1914 - 1918
History of the Graet War. He makes it clear that the allied governments
(if not the soldiers themselves) were perfectly prepared to continue if
the Central Powers did not accept the plans, in full without additional
conditions. He also says that Ludendorf had a plan for an early
armistice and keep the German army intact for a further attack later,
but was overruled & ousted by the new government that was a
condition of the armistice.
Apparently Lloyd George wanted to
press on to ensure that the German people could not decide that they had
not been beaten so that they would not be tempted to restart in twenty
years time. How prophetic was that?
Sorry,
Keith, I don't think that was Lloyd George's view at all. He is
famous for the quote "no victor, no vanquished" and was I believe keen
for Germany to resume a full part in European politics. (I just
happened to read this yesterday in Peter Clarke's "Hope and Glory -
Britain 1900-2000".) I understand it was the French who were
hell-bent on exacting vengeance on Germany, while Britain tried to
moderate her demands.
Hi
Sue. I am certainly no expert but I clearly read that in Stevenson only
a couple of days ago. Will try to find the text and "transcribe" it, or
at least provide a proper reference. Of course the timing is
important and I cant remember when in the last few months of the war he
is supposed to have said it. For example he may have said it fairly
early on then realised that it was more important to moderate the French
attempts to push on to take bridgeheads on the East of the Rhine than
to ensure total defeat. The changes in positions, especially by
Wilson, over those last few weeks were dramatic.
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Ah well, that's historians for you - can't agree on anything!
The differences in interpretation are part of what makes history so
fascinating to me.
If Lloyd George made the remark Stevenson
referred to in the closing months of the war, then he may well have
altered his views by the time he was at the negotiating table after the
war.
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Looking up reference sites for Phase 3, I found this in the USN Library Online Reading Room:
Radio
communications between Royal Navy Admiral Sir David Beatty and Vice
Admiral Franz Ritter von Hipper, Commander-in-Chief German High Seas
Fleet, and associated Armistice-related messages, 11-24 November 1918. (http://www.history.navy.mil/library/manuscript/wwi_naval_communication.htm)
(http://www.history.navy.mil/pics/wwinaval_commun01lge.jpg)
Other USN documents that are online at this time for 1910 through 1919 are at:
http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/readingroom.htm#1910
Note: all government generated documents and images are copyright-free by law.
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http://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-41486/ADM%2053-41486-025_0.jpg
HMS Fame, November 13th, 1918 (sorry if this was already posted).
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Janet, thanks for posting that signal, it explains the zig-zagging!
HMS Caradoc 11th Nov 1918 at 11:07 - Received signal to suspend hostilities against Germany
They are in the North Sea not far from Rosyth.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/oldweather/ADM53-37032/008_1.jpg
They are still zig-zagging in the afternoon despite the signal.
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Ah
well, that's historians for you - can't agree on anything! The
differences in interpretation are part of what makes history so
fascinating to me.
If Lloyd George made the remark Stevenson
referred to in the closing months of the war, then he may well have
altered his views by the time he was at the negotiating table after the
war.
Found
it. On page 477 Stevenson is talking about the allies discussions on
how far to go before calling the armistice. This is after the Germans
first contact with Wilson at the start of October but before the
armistice is enacted.
Stevenson is talking about the French
proposals push forward until they could cross the Rhine and form a
bridgehead on the East side.
Stevenson says: " In Britain the
mood was more cautious. Ironically Lloyd George questioned whether an
armistice now might leave the Germans feeling they had not been beaten
and encourage them to start again in twenty years time. but he did not
insist." He cites another book, "Had we Known" by French.
There
does seem to have been a lot of changing of positions in those frantic
months from the end of the last German offensive to the 11th of
Novermber.
Thus this seems to have been a point raised in discussion rather than an overall British Government position.
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Thanks for the clarification, Keith.